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The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai goes uninterrupted...
Topic Started: May 27 2018, 04:02 PM (4,557 Views)
EMIYA Jun 2 2018, 10:53 PM Post #151
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Six Trails
Jun 2 2018, 10:40 PM
You could argue that Beers was just trying to goad Goku into transforming. Not sure if someone's mentioned that earlier.
Beerus interaction is extremely bizarre, you have Goku who was literally told to hide and he'd need to suppress himself for it. There's no reason whatsoever for Goku to have powered up. Then you have Beerus, not so much sensing Goku, as he is randomly touching him. He patting his chest, stretching his arms, twisting his nipples, then gives that knowing smirk saying Goku couldn't have beaten Freeza. We also know that, Beerus has seen Super Saiyan Goku and its what he wants to see most of all. Maybe if Goku at least fought Beerus in base that might at least offer some inclination of feats.

But what we got was, very, very ambiguous.
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Notaka Jun 2 2018, 10:54 PM Post #152
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Always Wright
Quote:
 
Why would he go all out? Goku is literally behind a wall, trying to hide. It's not like Goku gets called out and then just powers up right there. He is literally suppressed, for the entire time he tries to remain hidden. There's no reason for him to suddenly power up like that. Again, that's a little too much "Devil's Proof" in trying to say that Goku was powered up when all indications says the exact opposite.


Hear me out on this:
Goku is at full strength(or maybe not) training, King Kai senses Beerus and tells Goku to hide, now here we know Goku is actually suppressed. Then you have Beerus calling him out, at which point, we don't know if he's still suppressed or actually just dropped the facade and went full power. It could be one way or the other.

But the other quote I posted still makes it look like Goku needs SSJ to be stronger than Frieza.

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I can hardly say that the anime, which make Frog Ginyu Canon, could be described as faithful, but that's beyond the point.


Agree. Though Ginyu Frog isn't in the manga? With what did he switch then?
Quote:
 

Also if SSJ Goku is suppressed, than logically Base Goku is suppressed. It's always possible for Goku to power down a bit afterwards but if we're to assume Goku was at full power in base, than transforming should make him full power as a Super Saiyan. But hey, what says Gokuw as at full power in base? That leaves to the exact same issue I brought up before.


No, because in order for Goku to transform, he'd need to power up to his full power before he's able to transform. and then, after he transforms, is when he can probably make his SSJ level lower than his base form. But my point is, He needs to go all out in base before he can transform and then adjust his power.

In this case, he wasn't hiding his power as he has no reason to, so I'll assume SSJ Goku was in full strength, and transformed from a full powered base Goku.

Quote:
 
1.) We have a statement saying that, well if anything, Vegeta is stronger than Freeza.
2.) We have the Base Kids fighting with No. 18, who, through some very uncertain ambiguity, is supposed to be holding back.


The same statement that has been analyzed and argued times and times again? Vegeta's quote doesn't hold 100% credibility, for one, he's talking about how confident he could win the tournament in base, when you actually have an equally confident character, that being 18, who is sure she can win the prize money.

2)That fight has been debated to death. There's more proof in the manga for 18 being superior to the kids. Even if we say 18 wasn't holding back, she's still above the kids. if she's still above the kids, it could mean that even Frieza is above them, just as they need to fulfill the fact that they're stronger than their dads back then and weaker than 18 and the adults.

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I ask again, why should we treat Beerus and the so called ambiguity of Goku, any different than the the Kids/No. 18 and their ambiguity an by virtue, the things involving Vegeta and the rest of the Base Saiyans.


Saying that Goku was suppressed when he got checked out by Beerus is the same as saying 18 was holding back against the kids. If you can call this card, so can I.

Let's just debate with what we have and not leave any room for outside interpretations
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EMIYA Jun 2 2018, 11:02 PM Post #153
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Quote:
 
Hear me out on this:
Goku is at full strength(or maybe not) training, King Kai senses Beerus and tells Goku to hide, now here we know Goku is actually suppressed. Then you have Beerus calling him out, at which point, we don't know if he's still suppressed or actually just dropped the facade and went full power. It could be one way or the other.

But the other quote I posted still makes it look like Goku needs SSJ to be stronger than Frieza.



Again, I feel that relies too much on uncertain ambiguity. It's like, well I can't not disprove that Goku wasn't powering up. But if I'm going to use that with Goku vs Beerus, we might as well use it for Kids vs No. 18, thus canceling each one out since, there's too much ambiguity to say who's powered up and who is apparently suppressed.

Quote:
 
Agree. Though Ginyu Frog isn't in the manga? With what did he switch then?


Sorry, what I should say is that those filler moments with Frog Ginyu are not in the manga and I'm pretty sure he doesn't appear the frog pond or anything. He might very well have just died on Namek and if he didn't, he should've died when Kid Boo blew up the earth as only "good" people were brought back, Another brilliant plot hole from the anime I might add.

All in all, if you can say there is ambiguity of No. 18 holding back, you have to say the exact same thing for the ambiguity of Goku holding back against Beerus. Thus, you can't claim one is more entitled of the truth than the others. I'd rather take a combination of statements and feats and use them directly, than to try to mix around something with a lot of ambiguity.
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Notaka Jun 2 2018, 11:07 PM Post #154
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Always Wright

 I'll admit, Beerus checking out Goku holds "ambiguity". But there's still the fact, it takes until Super Saiyan, that Beerus acknowledges how Goku can defeat Frieza.

It's a staple rule that the characters have to go to their base form's limit, then transform to break said limit, as they're stated to get stronger while they transform.

It's not until Goku finishes transforming, then fights against Beerus for a while, before Beerus says "I can see how you defeated Frieza". If Base Goku was already stronger, Beerus would have said while he was transforming "Oh, you're rising your power, and it surpasses Freeza's."
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"My name is Kakyoin Noriaki!"

Thanks to Graffiti for the Sig!

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+ Six Trails Jun 2 2018, 11:13 PM Post #155
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EMIYA
Jun 2 2018, 10:53 PM
Six Trails
Jun 2 2018, 10:40 PM
You could argue that Beers was just trying to goad Goku into transforming. Not sure if someone's mentioned that earlier.
Beerus interaction is extremely bizarre, you have Goku who was literally told to hide and he'd need to suppress himself for it. There's no reason whatsoever for Goku to have powered up. Then you have Beerus, not so much sensing Goku, as he is randomly touching him. He patting his chest, stretching his arms, twisting his nipples, then gives that knowing smirk saying Goku couldn't have beaten Freeza. We also know that, Beerus has seen Super Saiyan Goku and its what he wants to see most of all. Maybe if Goku at least fought Beerus in base that might at least offer some inclination of feats.

But what we got was, very, very ambiguous.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that Beers' statement could just be him trying to get Goku to transform rather than making an actual power statement about his base form.
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Thiln Jun 2 2018, 11:15 PM Post #156
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 I think to rationalise what we saw as #18 was avoiding Trunks' Kiai Ho, you would need to have the opposing charge regulated in its output to an absolute minimum - so minimal, in fact, that it begs the question of why they would need to transform in the first place. Condensibility and amplification are basic concepts in the DB universe for enabling a fighter to emit an attack that exceeds their natural power output under normal circumstances. If the kids were powerful enough to rival #18 in base then they wouldn't need to transform. An amplified untransformed attack should exceed not only their power but #18's as well.

You could even strip the transformation down to a meagre x3 multiplier and it still doesn't justify the charged attack. Adversaries with a gap separating themselves from the fighter in question of this degree are typically interpreted as being little more than hapless mice. It's the type of gap that makes each blow severely crippling. You're talking about a situation that's similar to Old King Piccolo decimating Goku when they first fought or Recoome toying with Gohan. Trunks wouldn't need a charged projectile. He could just blindside #18 and knock her out with a simple chop to the back of the neck.
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PF18 Jun 3 2018, 04:25 AM Post #157
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Son-Goku
Jun 2 2018, 09:51 PM
In the Super manga Vegeta says that he's the strongest in existence. He said it so it must be true.

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He also said he was the strongest Saiyan in existence in the anime. He cant really be trusted with stuff like this.
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